Fat burners

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Fat burners

Post  thebiggfella on Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:12 pm

Drew, I'd be curious to know your views on fat burners such as Lipofuze, Noxycut etc. Do you rate them or do you think they are purely a money making exercise aimed at folk looking for a quick fix solution to fat loss.

I've never used them and have no inclination to. For me, a healthy balanced diet in a slight calorie deficit did the trick. I was accused on my Men's Health thread of using Thermobol. I'd never even thought about such products until then. However, I do appreciate that there may be some who may need a little more help in whatever form that might come. Or are they just being gullible?

I'd appreciate a professional opinion on this. Thanks. Glynn.
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Fat Burners

Post  Drew Baye on Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:09 pm

There are a lot of products out there which claim to burn fat which are mostly worthless, and some which work, but not nearly as well as they claim. The key is to look at the active ingredients and check the research on them.

There is research showing benefits to caffeine, ephedrine, yohimbe, fish oil, green and oolong tea, and various other substances for fat loss, but there are a whole ton of products which have been hyped in advertising but have never been proven to help with fat loss. For example, orlistat, which is sold under the name Alli, made no significant difference in fat loss in clinical trials, even at amounts 6 times the recommended dose (which probably had subjects shitting themselves nonstop).

BTW, don't ever, ever take ephedrine and yohimbe together.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  thebiggfella on Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:34 am

Thanks for the reply Drew. There's a lot of posts on the Men's Health (UK) site about these fat burners. It is a minefield and as you say, research is essential if you were ever to consider taking these things.

I'll just stick to my coffee, green tea and fish oil!
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:03 pm

Glynn, I made some comments on the diet forum about EC...it has been VERY effective for me and after reading all the stuff on Lyle's forum and a lot of the research, I have great confidence in recommending it (not that YOU need it!) Of course, the challenge over there may be in getting the proper ingredients. I've been using Bronkaid + no-doz which are both of very high quality imo. Also, Lyle's RFL book has a good section on it. (I believe you have a copy of that book.)
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Re: Fat burners

Post  thebiggfella on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:21 pm

Yes Steve, I have that book. It never really occurred to me to use a fat burner and I can't say that I need to. Diet is the tool I have and always will use. I appreciate that some folk may need a little help to get rid of the fat and it's good for those folk to know that there is something out there amongst all the crap that will assist them.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:26 pm

thebiggfella wrote: it's good for those folk to know that there is something out there amongst all the crap that will assist them.

You've hit the nail on the head; Lyle does a good job in that section of the book in explaining why during calorie restriction the EC may be helpful. And using that combo is science based, not "advertising hype" based. That is why I encourage folks to look at EC vs. all the over-hyped "fat burners" out there. It certainly does a fantastic job of apetite suppression, which can also be a big bonus!
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Drew Baye on Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:47 pm

Admin wrote: I've been using Bronkaid + no-doz which are both of very high quality imo. Also, Lyle's RFL book has a good section on it. (I believe you have a copy of that book.)

Was taking Bronkaid and No-Doz also, but the Bronkaid was making me nauseous. I found a web site with a ton of supplements containing ephedrine and caffeine at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but have not purchased any yet. As much as I hate the Bronkaid, I figure I'll wait til I'm out of those first.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:58 pm

Drew Baye wrote:
Admin wrote: I've been using Bronkaid + no-doz which are both of very high quality imo. Also, Lyle's RFL book has a good section on it. (I believe you have a copy of that book.)

Was taking Bronkaid and No-Doz also, but the Bronkaid was making me nauseous. I found a web site with a ton of supplements containing ephedrine and caffeine at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but have not purchased any yet. As much as I hate the Bronkaid, I figure I'll wait til I'm out of those first.

Wow...that is a heckuva site. I have to be very careful to make sure I stick with 100% legal stuff, but I believe that has eased up a bit....I really need to do some research. Never had the nausea issue.

Are you trying to lean out a bit, Drew? How's it going? What's your diet like?
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Drew Baye on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:41 pm

Admin wrote:

Are you trying to lean out a bit, Drew? How's it going? What's your diet like?

Yeah. I bulked up to over 200 before, but got totally smooth in the process. My father in law even asked my wife if I was using steroids. So now I'm cutting again. Tim Ferris is using old photos of me in part of his book coming out this summer and I need to get ripped again for new photos so I can take advantage of whatever publicity that brings when it's out.

Current diet is pretty simple. I eat about a pound of very rare steak a day, six to twelve eggs, and then have small amounts of berries and leafy or cruciferous vegetables. Occasionally I'll substitute chicken, fish, or pork, and today I picked up some beef heart to try. Lots of water. Also taking ephedrine (25mg) three times daily. I am not currently taking the No-Doz, though, since I'm drinking a ton of coffee and diet Mt. Dew already. Once a week I'll have a cheat meal, usually on a workout day.

I'm alternating between upper and lower body workouts:

Upper Body:

Standing Dumbbell Press
Weighted Chin Up
Weighted Dip
Bent over Row
French Press
EZ Bar Curl OR Hammer Curls

Lower Body, Neck, Grip:

Neck Extension and Flexion (head harness)
Back Squat
Stiff Legged Barbell Deadlift
One-Legged Calf Raise w/ Dumbbell
Weighted Crunch (with barbell, in power rack)
Ivanko Super Gripper

I keep the reps around 5-8, (based on fatigue-response tests) moving just slowly enough to maintain strict form, but not being too strict about actual cadence. I rest about 5 seconds between reps, adding seconds as I fatigue, and terminating the set when I can no longer continue after a 10 second rest. Not rushing between exercises, just taking long enough to switch weights and catch my breath if necessary.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Bmalcolm on Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:40 am

Hey Drew Im wondering how to test for your individual rep range?

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Re: Fat burners

Post  Drew Baye on Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:33 am

Bmalcolm wrote:Hey Drew Im wondering how to test for your individual rep range?

I use a combination of a few methods, one gives a pretty good starting point, then there are guidelines for tweaking it over time. I have an entire section on it in the book with more detailed instructions, the rationale for 80%, etc. but the short version is:

Test 1RM on one compound pushing movement, one compound pulling movement, one multi-joint hip and thigh movement.
Wait at least 30 min.
Test for max reps on each exercise with 80% of 1RM to determine the upper rep number for exercises involving those muscle groups.
Multiply upper rep number by 0.7 and round down to nearest whole number for the lower rep number.

The ranges end up being
3-5
4-6
4-7
5-8
6-9
7-10
7-11
8-12
9-13
9-14
10-15
etc....

Most people are going to end up around 6 to 10 reps with 80%, but some will be much lower or higher.

Since individual muscles within the groups used for the multi joint exercises may do better with slightly higher or lower reps there are also guidelines for adjusting the range based on workout to workout performance. There are separate guidelines for direct exercise for the trunk and neck muscles, which I prefer to use higher reps for both out of caution and because the postural muscles tend to be more on the slow twitch side of the spectrum.

The book contains guidelines for determining everything from rep range to number of sets (yeah, research shows some people actually do better with more, but they're the exception, not the rule, especially training at high levels of intensity) to whether and how a person should split up their routine, and a ton of other stuff. Next weekend is the deadline and I've been going almost nonstop for the past week trying to make sure every point I wanted to make is covered and that there is as little unnecessary crap as possible. Double checking and streamlining things, doing the graphics, etc.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Bmalcolm on Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:18 am

Ok thanks Drew looking forward to the book. Can i do the test on isolation exercises for each muscle group?

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Re: Fat burners

Post  Drew Baye on Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:02 am

Bmalcolm wrote:Ok thanks Drew looking forward to the book. Can i do the test on isolation exercises for each muscle group?

The test could be done using isolation exercises too, but be careful of overlap in muscle involvement between exercises having an effect on subsequent 1RM tests. Also, testing 1RM on too many exercises will produce a lot of systemic fatigue which may skew the fatigue response tests somewhat, unless you take a longer rest in between.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:38 am

Drew Baye wrote:
Current diet is pretty simple. I eat about a pound of very rare steak a day, six to twelve eggs, and then have small amounts of berries and leafy or cruciferous vegetables. Occasionally I'll substitute chicken, fish, or pork, and today I picked up some beef heart to try. Lots of water. Also taking ephedrine (25mg) three times daily. I am not currently taking the No-Doz, though, since I'm drinking a ton of coffee and diet Mt. Dew already. Once a week I'll have a cheat meal, usually on a workout day.


Good stuff Drew...looks like a solid variation of a PSMF! From fitday: 1lb lean round steak, 6 eggs, 1 cup broccoli
Just did this for fun! cheers You're not doing this in an 8 hour IF window by any chance, are you Question

Grams Calories %-Cals
Calories 1,541
Fat 77.0 693 45 %
Carbohydrate 16.5 59 4 %
Dietary Fiber 6.0
Protein 185.7 788 51 %
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Diet

Post  Drew Baye on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:33 pm

Actually, I have no fixed meal schedule. I just eat when I feel like eating. I usually have two big meals a day - one earlier, one later - where I get most of my protein, and I just snack if I'm hungry around those.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Ciccio on Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:22 am

Hey Drew,

you may have overlooked this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

would like to hear your opinion.

Thanks,
Franco
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:36 pm

Franco, put some pants on affraid geek lol!
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Re: Fat burners

Post  Ciccio on Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:34 am

Admin wrote:Franco, put some pants on affraid geek lol!

You americans! So sensitive when it comes to naked skin. tongue
But especially for you I pulled up the lower edge of the pic.
I hope my belly button isn't too exciting for you. Razz Laughing clown
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:41 am

Ciccio wrote:
Admin wrote:Franco, put some pants on affraid geek lol!

You americans! So sensitive when it comes to naked skin. tongue
But especially for you I pulled up the lower edge of the pic.
I hope my belly button isn't too exciting for you. Razz Laughing clown

It was the tan line that was getting me all excited...I'm glad you're well "groomed" at least! lol! Basketball cheers affraid (sorry to hijack your thread with sick humor, Drew).
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LOL

Post  Drew Baye on Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:30 pm

No problemo.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:21 am

Drew Baye wrote:
Admin wrote: I've been using Bronkaid + no-doz which are both of very high quality imo. Also, Lyle's RFL book has a good section on it. (I believe you have a copy of that book.)

Was taking Bronkaid and No-Doz also, but the Bronkaid was making me nauseous. I found a web site with a ton of supplements containing ephedrine and caffeine at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but have not purchased any yet. As much as I hate the Bronkaid, I figure I'll wait til I'm out of those first.

Drew, I've been giving this site a look as my Bronkaid/No-Doz supply winds down. The choices are a bit daunting to say the least! Firstly, do you know anyone who has successfully ordered from this site? Any guidance on which product to choose? I'm trying to stick with the 25/200 combo, but am hesitant to include much of the aspirin (research has tended to show that it only helps the combo in the severly obese), and based on your comments am leary of the possibility of yohimbine being included. Ugh, maybe I should stick to my old reliable Bronkaid+NoDoz from here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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EC

Post  Drew Baye on Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:53 pm

I have not ordered from them yet. I found them through a google search. I'm going to try to find a phone number and call them before ordering. Also going to search for individual products by name to compare price.

I'll let you know what I find out.
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An alternative?

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:18 pm

http://www.medicinenet.com/ephedrine-oral/article.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECA_stack

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedrine

Safety concerns regarding ephedrine are perhaps over done, however they deserve serious consideration. Otherwise, I can almost guarantee you'll have a hard time sleeping properly, get the shakes and suffer bouts of anxiety. Ever heard of “whizz dick”? A similar thing happens with caffeine and ephedrine too.

I talk to a lot of individuals who use ephedrine. The thing is, it doesn't work very well! Most say that it's a good pre-workout stimulant but near useless for fat loss. I can't think of one person who has used the drug (without steroids/growth) and enjoyed great success. Naturals (though ephedrine is IOC banned) also risk a loss of muscle tissue when using it.

I personally believe that the cost of using this type of drug outweighs any minor benefit. Proper knuckledraggers save ephedrine for Saturday night, vodka and Redbull.

I'm not sure about the “return” of the high protein diet either. I thought writers like Clarence Bass and Ellington Darden put that stuff to bed 20-odd years ago? I know I couldn't face half a cow and a tonne of eggs every day. What's wrong with “regular” food? In order to get fat, overeat. In order to get lean, eat less.

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Re: Fat burners

Post  Drew Baye on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:58 pm

James T wrote:
I'm not sure about the “return” of the high protein diet either. I thought writers like Clarence Bass and Ellington Darden put that stuff to bed 20-odd years ago? I know I couldn't face half a cow and a tonne of eggs every day. What's wrong with “regular” food? In order to get fat, overeat. In order to get lean, eat less.

It turns out Ell and Clarence are wrong. No time to get into it now, because I have a book to finish today, but the short version is a large body of research shows benefits of high protein (1 to 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight daily, assuming average bodyfat level) both for muscle gain and fat loss, and both weight loss and health benefits to lower carb diets.
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Re: Fat burners

Post  sgsims1 on Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:31 pm

Drew Baye wrote:
James T wrote:
I'm not sure about the “return” of the high protein diet either. I thought writers like Clarence Bass and Ellington Darden put that stuff to bed 20-odd years ago? I know I couldn't face half a cow and a tonne of eggs every day. What's wrong with “regular” food? In order to get fat, overeat. In order to get lean, eat less.

It turns out Ell and Clarence are wrong. No time to get into it now, because I have a book to finish today, but the short version is a large body of research shows benefits of high protein (1 to 1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight daily, assuming average bodyfat level) both for muscle gain and fat loss, and both weight loss and health benefits to lower carb diets.

I'm with Drew on this after a LOT of reading over the last few years, as well as personal experience with my own almost 40lbs of fat loss. I also have to beg to differ with your opinion on EC. Research has shown the stimulant effect to minimize after the body gets used to it, but the fat burning effects continue as well as an extremely effective apetite suppressing affect. (You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia for your info.! Embarassed Evil or Very Mad ) This goes for the higher fat and protein diet as well; a calorie may still be a calorie, but the apetite gets HEAVILY suppressed when you up the fat and protein and cut way back on the refined carbs. I think Lyle McDonald has done his homework on both of these subjects.

No doubt, James, that the JamesT/Landau idea of "just get tough, suck it up, and eat less" can work and may be the simplest way(just ask Glynn!), but for those of us who have to spend a loooong time working on fat loss, it can be brutal. affraid
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