Systemic stimuli ?

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Systemic stimuli ?

Post  Turpin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:39 am

Hi Drew ,
I have just completed an 8 week TUL study ( training experiment ) where my training briefly comprised of 4 compound exercises ( 3 upper body 1 lower body ) performed X 1 weekly ( later extended to x 11 days ) primarily for a TUL of 40-60 sec on a single repetion/static hold for upper body ( chin , dip , u/row ) and repetitions TF on lower body ( leg press )

link to video; [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I made very good gains over the 8 workouts that I employed this format in both body composition and in resistance used , however the best gains in size was in my lower body ( thighs ) . Given that leg press was performed last in the sequence of exercises and at a reduced capacity ( albeit still to failure ) than I am/was previously capable of in terms of repetitions performed where I previously trained them seperately . What would account for such gains particuarly in the thighs despite the reduced working capacity ? ..... increased hormonal output from intense `systemic` effort ? Or perhaps was I performing too much in terms of repetitions previously for legs ( it was still 1 set TF previously , but performed first in a workout of 2 exercises only )
BTW ; I am 43 yrs old and train naturally ,& there was no change in diet or lifestyle during this experiment.

Your input/experience would be greatly appreciated. T.

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Last edited by Turpin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text)
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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  sgsims1 on Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:17 pm

I'm curious about this as well; I too have Leg presses at the end of my 6 set program, once per week (after a pre-exhaust set of leg extensions) and have documented much greater strength gains from legs over upper body as well. (Even as a %, of course taking into account that the legs are bigger and stronger than upper body.)

I'm of the mindset that somehow frequency needs to be adjusted for upper vs. lower, but I'm not sure which way to go with either Rolling Eyes
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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  Guest on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:16 pm

Hi T,

When you say reduced capacity,I presume you mean less weight/and or reps Than you were performing prior to your new routine.

My opinion agrees with your suggestion of a greater systemic demand. I am interested in how much of a reduction in capacity you noticed against your previous load.

The reason I ask is I tried one workout incorporating longer rest periods between sets.For some strange reason,I found I couldn't move the weight I was using with minimal rest periods on the leg press.

I am quite interested in this concept,as years ago I remember a guy who used to perform an all out set of dead lifts,ran over to the bench to perform his presses. He insisted he could bench press more by performing the dead lifts first.

I have a theory as to why this could be if anybody is interested in reading, I will put a few thoughts together and share.

Regards
Mark

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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  sgsims1 on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:39 pm

Admin wrote:I'm curious about this as well; I too have Leg presses at the end of my 6 set program, once per week (after a pre-exhaust set of leg extensions) and have documented much greater strength gains from legs over upper body as well. (Even as a %, of course taking into account that the legs are bigger and stronger than upper body.)

I'm of the mindset that somehow frequency needs to be adjusted for upper vs. lower, but I'm not sure which way to go with either Rolling Eyes

Clearly my comments here are an offshoot of Turpin and Mark's specific topic, and have more to do with overall progress. But I am also doing heavier weight on legs, at the END of my training sessions, than I ever have in the past. Mark, your theories on this will make a great thread on your section as well!


Last edited by Admin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  Turpin on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:42 pm

Hi Mark , Thanks for the response.
In regards to reduced capacity I mean repetitions performed , as a `for instance` I trained on Wednesday ( leg press/shoulder press ) and performed some 15 reps with the resistance I was using for 8 reps at the end of the TUL experiment ( although admittedly despite any reduced capacity I did see progressively heavier weight with no change to TUL on the leg press over the 8 weeks )

I fully understand what you are saying in regards to trying your leg press on its own and not getting it going . I too witnessed similar when I tried such on REST PAUSE chins a week or so after finishing this routine. My chins ended up at a TUL of 45 sec with 90lbs on the study , so I thought the next logical step ( now that I know my single rep capabilities on the exercise ) was a couple of R/P sessions of 2 exercises per workout , I attached a 95lb dumbell and couldnt even complete the positive portion of the rep ( got halfway !) . But it was a different story on leg press on Wednesday where I felt exceptionally strong.
My theory on such is the adrenaline rush ( fear factor ) that one feels when faced with the `unknown` ( new territory/resistance) each workout & the focus that the trainee is forced to employ to harness such to see further improvement. But I believe both this adrenaline and focus to be shortlived ( the former over some minutes of the brief workout , and the latter over some weeks ) before one experiences `burnout`. This is where I believe periodisation of such intensity is prudent for further progress , hence I have reduced the intensity and volume of my workouts for a time by performing only repetitions to failure ( no negatives or static holds ) and only 2 exercises per workout x 1 weekly.
Id be interested in your/anyones thoughts on such Mark .


Best wishes , T.
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Systemic stimuli

Post  Drew Baye on Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:38 pm

It sounds like the reduced volume for the legs may have been a major factor. Some people will do much, much better with a lower volume of work, and I think most people grossly overestimate the amount of exercise an advanced subject needs, especially when putting forth a very high level of intensity.

One of the strongest people I trained worked out once a week, doing only one set of 3 exercises, with a TUL of around 60 seconds. Leg Press, Chest Press, Row one workout, Deadlift, Shoulder Press, Pulldown the other (all Hammer Strength).

Not saying this is ideal for everyone, but it has produced good results for people who train so hard that a higher volume quickly results in overtraining.
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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  Turpin on Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:55 pm

Drew Baye wrote:It sounds like the reduced volume for the legs may have been a major factor. Some people will do much, much better with a lower volume of work, and I think most people grossly overestimate the amount of exercise an advanced subject needs, especially when putting forth a very high level of intensity.

One of the strongest people I trained worked out once a week, doing only one set of 3 exercises, with a TUL of around 60 seconds. Leg Press, Chest Press, Row one workout, Deadlift, Shoulder Press, Pulldown the other (all Hammer Strength).

Not saying this is ideal for everyone, but it has produced good results for people who train so hard that a higher volume quickly results in overtraining.

Thankyou for the response Drew.

In My training previous I was capable of some 20-30 reps with similar resistance on the leg press but these were performed almost rest-pause fashion ( 3-4 large breaths between reps as the reps became hard to perform ) , perhaps such was just too much and was actually retarding my progress.


Bill Sahli gave wonderful insight into his view on systemic stimuli when I asked similar to him , he said ; Systemic is how the body operates... whether the exercise is first or last and depending on the effort put forth, the body will lay down muscle.

Certain exercises are awesome for turning on the growth mechanism and that is why I recommend them. Take the squat and the deadlift for instance.

In the deadlift, does the body know it is doing a deadlift or is it putting maximum effort using the legs off the floor while transferring that same effort to the back and rest of the body as it continues?

It knows that it is being challenged beyond its normal limit and so it adapts!

Just like when we deadlift first we can usually do a bit better than if we do a pullup or pulldown and maybe a row first.

It does not hold the body back not one iota in laying down a whole lotta muscle!

Your exercises used were selected perfectly and if it were I... I would know that my upper body is not as tough as my lower body but that as your test proves... does not stop the body in adapting to the exercise routine no matter which way it is performed.

And... Leg Presses are perfect in that selection process. Sometimes we make it more complicated then it really is. Our bodies are amazing machines and computers. They know how to handle stress, adapt, handle food and different eating times and when to rest.

It comes down to managing stress, which is volume and frequency and balancing the workout with the proper exercises. This is why as you get stronger you would either have to rest longer or split the workout... as splitting the workout to 2 or 3 splits... accomplishes both!


Mny thanks for your response Drew , much appreciated , T.
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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  coomo on Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:38 pm

Turpin wrote:Hi Drew ,
I have just completed an 8 week TUL study ( training experiment ) where my training briefly comprised of 4 compound exercises ( 3 upper body 1 lower body ) performed X 1 weekly ( later extended to x 11 days ) primarily for a TUL of 40-60 sec on a single repetion/static hold for upper body ( chin , dip , u/row ) and repetitions TF on lower body ( leg press )

link to video; [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I made very good gains over the 8 workouts that I employed this format in both body composition and in resistance used , however the best gains in size was in my lower body ( thighs ) . Given that leg press was performed last in the sequence of exercises and at a reduced capacity ( albeit still to failure ) than I am/was previously capable of in terms of repetitions performed where I previously trained them seperately . What would account for such gains particuarly in the thighs despite the reduced working capacity ? ..... increased hormonal output from intense `systemic` effort ? Or perhaps was I performing too much in terms of repetitions previously for legs ( it was still 1 set TF previously , but performed first in a workout of 2 exercises only )
BTW ; I am 43 yrs old and train naturally ,& there was no change in diet or lifestyle during this experiment.

Your input/experience would be greatly appreciated. T.

Pics;

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/img]

[img][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/img]
Turpin.My w/o is basically as yours.During the last two years, 2/3/4 upper body movements, then legs last or last but one.My legs are always stronger, every w/o.My upper body is not, its sporadic.Legs though,every time.I wish i could transfer some of this "effect" to my upper body, what the hell is gong on!

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Re: Systemic stimuli ?

Post  Turpin on Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:56 pm

LOL. ... I wish I knew Coomo !

I have always been strongest on legs and at times felt my effort on such at times negated upper body improvement , hence I was okay with placing leg press last in my sequence of exercise during this experiment . However despite having to use reduced rep range due to systemic fatigue my legs grew at an alarming rate over the 8 weeks.
I have now halved the routine and performing the same exercises once bi-weekly and have seen increase in resistance/reps used but without the systemic fatigue that was apparent during the study , I`ll give this a go for some 6-8 weeks and then give appraisal by way of video/pics of any progress made , which may give some insight into the value of systemic stimuli as a growth pre-cursor.

Best wishes , T.
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